Curse

Wyat Hawke · Jun 04, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

I don't remember anet saying eles are supposed to be nukers period....

Have you ever read the description of them in the manual?

Here's some quotes from www.guildwars.com

Quote:

With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession. (...)

(..) Earth magic triggers quakes and volcanoes, envelops foes in solid rock, and can add to the strength and stamina of allies. Air magic is driven by the power of storms and lightning, granting allies greater speed or targeting specific foes with a focused, high-damage attack. Fire magic is often considered the most purely destructive form, inflicting searing pain and damage on multiple enemies. The magic of Water is highly manipulative. Water magic summons ice and mist to slow enemies down and blur their vision, inflicts freezing cold damage, and even protects allies from other forms of magical attack. (...)

That was quite clear wasn't it? It's quite obvious what they wanted when they created the Elementalist. A proffesion that could spike and nuke, with some added capabilities (like wards, or blinding etc). I don't really think you can get it that much clearer.

On the topic again, I also think some of the water magic spells should be buffed (slightly). I underlined one sentence in the text "inflicts freezing cold damage". some of the low end skills (the ones without snares, the ones few people use) should be buffed in some way. Perhaps adding armour ignoring damage (like the earth line with Crystal Wave and Obsidian Flame) at the added expense of longer recharge times and/or exhaustion? I'm just merely suggestion, I don't necessarily think it should be done straight away. I just think that some of those spells could fit A-nets own description

Kale Ironfist · Jun 04, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Fistly note that water damage is very weak against targets with over 80 armor, and that shatterstone is an elite skill, so it is pointless comparing it to loightning orb. Invoke would be a better comparison. While invoke has a loger recharge, the damage output is a lot higher to make up for this. The suggestions I made for shatterstone and vapor blade will balance these skills a lot more with the other elem lines.

Invoke is not a valid comparison because it hits more targets. You'll notice Shatterstone deals more raw damage, doesn't need line of sight and most importantly, is in a line that isn't made for damage. Think of skill synergy balance before suggesting to increase damage on an already powerful line.

Quote:

My Icy Prism suggestion was over the top, i forgot about the 2 second recharge. However, it would be better buffed to 74 damage to make it the same as ice spear and trident.

I repeat, it's not meant for damage, unlike Ice Spear, and to a lesser extent, Water Trident. If you're going to go for a water damage build, use them, not Icy Prism.

Quote:

A mind freeze spike with 110 cold per hit really wouldnt ever become used. Fistly, these spells cause exhaustion, and considering that, it is a very weak spell for one that causes exhaustion. Right now, it does the same damage as ice spikes, the increase I suggested was to allow it to do the same amount of damage as a single hit from shatterstone. It really is a very weak spell, if you are looking for a snare, Icy Shackles is a lot better.

That Mind Freeze spike kills pretty much any caster, and even if used on anyone with more 70+ armor, they are SLOWED BY 90%! Icy Shackles is definitely not better because Mind Freeze has a lower recharge, and it's quite easy to hit 90% slowdown without a pre-cursor that only the opponent controls. So what if it causes exhaustion? It's a really good skill, and it deals damage, something Icy Shackles doesn't do.

Quote:

The point you raise about the prisons ending on fire damage to prevent aoe snares is a little invalid, since there are so many other snares that allow you to do the same thing anyway.

Name me a single target snare that lasts as long as it does and isn't elite in the Water Magic line. That's right, NONE. All other snares are: short, area effects, elite or in a completely different profession. Even the strongest area effect slowdown, Deep Freeze, costs a significant amount, and has an even longer activation time (interrupt bait, no duplicate in case that happens).

Of the comparable snares, you've got Cripple (condition removal), Imagined Burden (requires Illusion Magic), Ethereal/Kitah's Burden (high recharge, requires Illusion Magic) and Crippling Anguish (elite, requires Illusion Magic). And note that these all reduce by 50%, not the 66% Ice/Teinai's Prison offers. After those, you've got Iron Mist and Binding Chains, and they have their own highly restrictive clauses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyat Hawke

That was quite clear wasn't it? It's quite obvious what they wanted when they created the Elementalist. A proffesion that could spike and nuke, with some added capabilities (like wards, or blinding etc). I don't really think you can get it that much clearer.

While the manual is clear, it never states that water is for mass nuking. It says it is highly manipulative, and indeed, it is.

Toilet Oni · Jun 04, 2007, 01:42 PM // 13:42

we got Fire magic and Air magic for dmg, do we really need another one?

Saphatorael · Jun 04, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Oran, if you can't name three, I'm going to assume you don't know what you are talking about. Unlike some other people.

Whoa.
Failure.
Utter failure.

Let me recap on your argumentation.
1. You explain why you think Water Magic needs a buff
2. Oranos says that he thinks it's a perfectly fine attribute, if not the best in the game
3. You say it's balanced, but it needs more spike damage because it's not balanced enough for spiking, and ask for 3 spiking skills, as if each magic line should have at least spiking skills.
4. Oranos mentions the obvious spike skills, and says that adding/changing the concept of Water Magic would just throw away its balance.
5. You ignore his reply and just stick to your ridiculous question, which contradicts your previous statements, and demand a response to it, even though the subject of the argument has changed already, namely, 'Would more spike skills in the Water Magic line be a good idea?'

Insider arguments aren't real, they're fallacies.

I expect you to actually reply to Oranos' statement instead of making a bigger fool out of yourself right now (the title of the thread already made me laugh).

Not meant as a flame, just a request to actually think before you post (and/or create dumb threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyat Hawke

Have you ever read the description of them in the manual?

Have you read it and based your way of playing on the manual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by guildwars.com

Combined with a secondary like Warrior or Ranger, Monks can also be quite effective when it comes to hurting the enemy.

Yeah, let's all ask ANet for Axe buffs because Mo/W with Frenzy and Decapitate isn't effective.
ANet wants us to play it!

PS: Yes, I study law, and it's getting to my head, sorry for the quite negative tone o.o

glountz · Jun 04, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

/Notsigned
Most people already answered why.
Let face it : where mobility is a key to victory (GvG for example), hydromancers are King.

Saphatorael · Jun 04, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Ok, now I actually completely read your OP.
Now to comment on THAT.

Quote:

While I know anet will probably tell people who want to nuke to play air or fire, but that's not the point.

That IS the point. Anet made the different elements for the idea of versatility.
You don't play Water because you want to, you play Water because it has skills that you want to use.
It's as if you prefer to kill stuff using Water Magic, just for the sake of it being Water, and not Fire like any other nuking build.

You're supposed to pick an element for its capabilities, not an element because it's the element you want to use for whatever you want to do.

Wyat Hawke · Jun 04, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Have you read it and based your way of playing on the manual?

Yeah, let's all ask ANet for Axe buffs because Mo/W with Frenzy and Decapitate isn't effective.
ANet wants us to play it!

PS: Yes, I study law, and it's getting to my head, sorry for the quite negative tone o.o

Don't worry, I'm not offended

However your argument is a bit flawed. Go to the granite citadel and see all the bots/farmers. What build do you think they use? If they'd not want to let monks farm, wouldn't nerfing PS be the easiest thing in the world?

And remember that signet spike in HA?

Of course everything shouldn't be taken literative. But as you can see, the manual wasn't that wrong after all

Saphatorael · Jun 04, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyat Hawke

What build do you think they use?
And remember that signet spike in HA?

They use Shield of Judgement for damage, as far as I know, presumably Bonetti's Defense for emanagement. Just like Frenzied Defense is used in TA. Not offensive, as the manual 'suggests' XD

Same goes up for the signet spike... but let's not go there, the subject at hand here, is Water Magic!

Radiant Dawnstar · Jun 04, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

[skill]Water Trident[/skill][skill]Shatterstone[/skill][skill]Icy Shackles[/skill]

[skill]Vapor Blade[/skill][skill]Deep Freeze[/skill][skill]Frozen Burst[/skill][skill]Ice Spikes[/skill][skill]blurred vision[/skill]

OMG, UNDERPOWERED!

tenshi_strife · Jun 04, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

lol yup nice point radiant..... those skills hurt..... ALOT

Winterclaw · Jun 04, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Anet's Rebuttal

Quote:

Over the last two years, teams have run many different types of spikes from Fire, Earth, and Air. Other than brief flirtations with Vapor Blade and Shatterstone, Water hasn't yet seen its spike phase because it doesn't have the quick cast and high damage skills needed for a spike.

Even they know water els don't have enough damage spells.

Radient, water trident doesn't do enough damage and icy shackles is a snare only. FB is only good in melee, deep freeze does poor damage for it's cost, and as stated, vapor blade is only useful part of the time. Ice spikes could do a little more damage as well. Blurred vision is a good hex, but it doesn't do any damage THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

Puebert · Jun 04, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

I think they should switch the roles of the four elemental lines.

Like, make Water a really great damage dealer and have fire back down.

linh · Jun 04, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

So I guess after ANet make water line deal good damage to spike, you are gonna make another whining thread " Why Fire Magic can't snare like water, it is unfair" or " Air magic deal good damage to single target, but it is unfair, I want it to snare like water and deal aoe damage like Fire" ...etc..
I hope you are joking because each attribute line have different role, and you can't act as if the class Ele itself can't deal damage. You want big damage and spike, why don't go Fire or Air, they are also Ele attribute ( or because you only have good water weapons so you request it ?)

Zuranthium · Jun 04, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Buff both Shatterstone and vapor blade to 10e, 5r, and remove the limitation off Vapor Blade.

LMFAO.

LMFAO.

LMFAO.

~Z

Thom Bangalter · Jun 04, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

/signed.

I feel my power level just isn't quite high enough in a gvg. Also, can you make freezing gust undivertable? I get pretty sad when that happens. And can icy shackles last 20 seconds too pls? pls i rly need.

Trylo · Jun 04, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

so basically ... how about this:

Water gets spikes up to 100 damage on a few nice skills with no limitation for ~10 energy.

Fire gets all its burning skills buffed in duration and the foe gets crippled for the same duration.

Air's AP is increased to 40% and windborne speed is increased to 15e and made a party wide ench.

Earth's aoes get increased in area and deal about 50% more damage, and churning earth is changed to any moving foe gets KD'd.

you happy yet?

/sarcasm

masteroflife · Jun 04, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

sigh... so not signed. when will people realize that there is more to guild wars than dealing damage.

Trevor · Jun 04, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

As someone who plays some form of water ele 95% of the time:

No, leave water the bloody hell alone.

Mesmer in Need · Jun 05, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

No spike damage? Ever been hit by Shatterstone -> Vapor Blade? Without an enchant, Shatterstone ending and Vapor Blade hitting you at the same time does wicked damage. Not to mention whatever else your party's spiking with.

Ice spikes(or another snare)->Rend Enchants->Shatterstone->Vapor blade= Dead person. I feel the water magic line is balanced. Plz dont buff mind freeze, ids farming is hard enough. Of course screwing up pve is nothing new to anet. Also the conjur has already been nerfed due to the warrior abuse.

Radiant Dawnstar · Jun 05, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Anet's Rebuttal

Even they know water els don't have enough damage spells.

Radient, water trident doesn't do enough damage and icy shackles is a snare only. FB is only good in melee, deep freeze does poor damage for it's cost, and as stated, vapor blade is only useful part of the time. Ice spikes could do a little more damage as well. Blurred vision is a good hex, but it doesn't do any damage THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

Oh noes, Healing Prayers doesn't have damage skills! Let's add some AoE!